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Not only were your original analogies that I pointed out completely flawed, but this response of yours isn’t at all related to my point, nor your own flawed analogies.
Since you seem confused, I’ll help you out.
A teacher can effectively teach multiple kids at once (you pointed out that 20-28 was the sweet spot). However, a DMV worker can only process one client at a time. And as for the rest of your examples? Can a grocery store clerk check out one person at a time, or multiple people at once? Can multiple people use the same gas pump at the same time? Can a nurse attend to multiple patients at the same time?
Sorry phetaroi, but this was a massive fail on your part.
If you are a "tax phd", whatever that means, I'll bow to your expertise in that matter, but how much time have you spent teaching in a middle or high school?
If you are a "tax phd", whatever that means, I'll bow to your expertise in that matter, but how much time have you spent teaching in a middle or high school?
It doesn’t require any sort of expertise to understand that only one person at a time can use a gas pump.
I don’t teach in either middle or high schools. But those are the students that I get in my university classes. And I see firsthand just how poorly educated those students are, coming out of high school.
Based on my own significant experience, seeing firsthand the end product of secondary school education in this country, it’s easy to conclude that few secondary education teachers have much to be proud of.
It doesn’t require any sort of expertise to understand that only one person at a time can use a gas pump.
I don’t teach in either middle or high schools. But those are the students that I get in my university classes. And I see firsthand just how poorly educated those students are, coming out of high school.
Based on my own significant experience, seeing firsthand the end product of secondary school education in this country, it’s easy to conclude that few secondary education teachers have much to be proud of.
Exaggerrated, but some truth there (the bolded). But that doesn't mean that you know the solutions. It's always easy to point out the problems.
Yes, only one person can use a gas pump at the same time. And only one student can sit down and get one-on-one help from a teacher at a time. I know you college professors like to lecture to groups. That doesn't work with 12 year olds.
You college professors get young adult students who are choosing to be at your college and take your course. We elementary, middle, and high school people get kids aged 5-17 (mostly), who don't choose to be in school, who don't choose which courses to take, and aren't making career decisions in their lives yet. And we have to take everybody who walks through the door. At the middle level, half of our kids weren't even managing their puberty yet, and you think it's the same.
I can tell you any number of horror stories about univeristy education and professors. But that doesn't mean that I know the solutions. Because I'm not living it every day. I'm on the outside looking in.
So you keep rolling your eyes all you want to like a 13 year old girl does, but one of the things I remember about all those professors who taught education classes in college who had never actually taught at an elementary, junior, or senior high school...frankly, they didn't know what they were talking about in regard to middle schools and high schools.
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Class sizes can be larger with more discipline
It's 2023, we have a WORLD of pertinent data at our finger tips.
20- 32 seems to be the preferred class size in many countries who absolutely dominate academic acheivement (of which the USA is far lacking).
Yes, those are different cultures and different teaching systems and priorities. (Maybe we could learn something from others )
Do understand in some of those countries, who are far superior to USA in academic deliverables... the teachers have 30 kids from 8AM until noon, and 30 more (additional kids from 1pm - 5 pm) + mandatory joint classes on Saturday AM.
Some teachers follow their classes from 1>6, which can be +/- for students and teachers.
It's quite common for teachers in Germany and Switzerland to take a yr sabbatical leave every 5-10 yrs. (including pay BTW!) I always took my long leaves w/o pay, no choice in my industry as it was not taxpayer funded.
Discipline - yup
It's a priviledge to be able to attend school, so... If you don't want to attend, or are disruptive.... you can go bust rocks the rest of your life. (no social safety net for underachievers).
Mandatory conscription is another incentive, as well as training for becoming self independent, and the visibility of what your life WILL be like forever, if you choose the non-education or skills training track.
Exposure to real life situations help student make lifelong, sound and impactful choices.
We have a ways to go (learn and grow up, and discipline, and implementation of direct consequences). This doesn't begin at age 26.
I'm a proponent of much smaller class sizes and integrated age groups (who are responsible and graded on their ability to educate and collaborate with thier peers. (I.e. REAL life!))
This is not a jab at teachers. I mean more discipline instilled at home and carried over to school.
Disruptive students are a major factor requiring low student to teacher ratios. If there were more discipline in the classroom and fewer disruptions, class sizes could be larger (30+) without slowing the pace. This would reduce the cost of education.
I have taught classes of up to 35. I have taught classes of significantly fewer. I can keep discipline in any class (usually).
But I teach English. Giving me 35 students instead of 25, and given that there won't be more hours in the day, or that it isn't fair for me to wait to return papers for an extra bunch of days, I would say that larger classes become untenable if the teacher cannot give the kind of feedback and one-to-one instruction to the larger group.
Sure, I could cut corners, assign less, provide less written feedback, rely on pre-canned responses or simply not read as carefully. But the students deserve better. Just because I can keep discipline and lecture to a large group doesn't mean that I can teach in any meaningful and rounded way as effectively.
I have taught classes of up to 35. I have taught classes of significantly fewer. I can keep discipline in any class (usually).
But I teach English. Giving me 35 students instead of 25, and given that there won't be more hours in the day, or that it isn't fair for me to wait to return papers for an extra bunch of days, I would say that larger classes become untenable if the teacher cannot give the kind of feedback and one-to-one instruction to the larger group.
Sure, I could cut corners, assign less, provide less written feedback, rely on pre-canned responses or simply not read as carefully. But the students deserve better. Just because I can keep discipline and lecture to a large group doesn't mean that I can teach in any meaningful and rounded way as effectively.
Very well stated.
As I indicated, when my class load went from roughly 125 per day up to 240 per day, I could not -- COULD NOT -- evaluate 480 lab write-ups per week. I had to start spot-checking labs. The quality of student work dropped. And why wouldn't it.
i have taken college classes with 200 student, you sat there quiet for 45 minute, no home work, no weekly test, at end of course you took a final and that was the grade, just one test. you either learned or failed, they didnt care
It shouldn't by now but it surprises me with how some come out with these opinions without having the experience of teaching K-12 aged kids nor being educated on child development, learning differences, social emotional issues, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Uh huh...and for centuries we had such a just system.
Right? What I inferred from that post was keep the poor poor and the marginalized marginalized.
Because the poor and marginalized are unlikely to be able to afford a "good" school with privatized education. I mean look at how many folks are struggling coming out of college with massive amounts of debt. Imagine if debt accrual started at the K level.
Think the privatized medical care system is a crap show? Just imagine a privatized education system.
The same people who want privatized education complain about inflation and blame the government for not doing anything to stop or reduce inflation. But they're okay with school's being run on the free market by capitalists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Very well stated.
As I indicated, when my class load went from roughly 125 per day up to 240 per day, I could not -- COULD NOT -- evaluate 480 lab write-ups per week. I had to start spot-checking labs. The quality of student work dropped. And why wouldn't it.
Another important point. These kids are going to eventually be our doctors, attorneys, engineers, scientists, leaders, educators, etc. etc. Professionals that we need to function as a society. We certainly don't want to graduate them with the most basic, mediocre education.
The bright, motivated student (and I believe the vast majority fit this mold) will have more opportunities to identify his/her strengths and interests -- and find his/her own way in an open, less-regimented environment.
The disruptive few simply need to be identified, isolated, and the skids greased into a strictly-regimented system; some will redeem themselves via another path -- the military, for example, or a demanding, sometimes-hazardous physical job/role, but most of the "hard cases" I remember from my wasted junior-high days are dead -- often the fruit of their own stupidity.
This is the way that nature and the markets have been sorting things out for centuries, and the dreams of the bureaucratic empire-builders of the sham called public education to the contrary, the way the process will continue.
As an early Boomer, in 1956 when I was in the second grade Catholic school we had 57 students in our class. Mother Sullivan ran it like a prison camp. We were all given a number. Mine was 12.
She said she had eyes in the back of her head and could see up if we misbehaved. We believed it. She had a big wooden ruler available for a quick slap across the knuckles, although she never did that.
The school would not tolerate misbehavior. If you were difficult you would be expelled and forced to go the the public school. We feared that possibility.
But damn, she was a good teacher. I can still remember her lessons in grammar, spelling and arithmetic. In those days the parents would side with the teacher and we were forced to behave.
I followed that cohort through high school. Most of us went on to earn college degrees.
When you have to go to the DMV, why not just have 1 clerk instead of 8?
One grocery checkout instead of 5?
One gas pump instead of 10?
One nurse in the emergency room.
Let's cut those prices!
Aren't they already doing that? Sure seems like it.
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