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As an early Boomer, in 1956 when I was in the second grade Catholic school we had 57 students in our class. Mother Sullivan ran it like a prison camp. We were all given a number. Mine was 12.
She said she had eyes in the back of her head and could see up if we misbehaved. We believed it. She had a big wooden ruler available for a quick slap across the knuckles, although she never did that.
The school would not tolerate misbehavior. If you were difficult you would be expelled and forced to go the the public school. We feared that possibility.
But damn, she was a good teacher. I can still remember her lessons in grammar, spelling and arithmetic. In those days the parents would side with the teacher and we were forced to behave.
I followed that cohort through high school. Most of us went on to earn college degrees.
And yet you want children treated as if they are living "a prison camp". That's child abuse.
This is not a jab at teachers. I mean more discipline instilled at home and carried over to school.
Disruptive students are a major factor requiring low student to teacher ratios. If there were more discipline in the classroom and fewer disruptions, class sizes could be larger (30+) without slowing the pace. This would reduce the cost of education.
You aren’t a teacher
Class size is about MONEY—salaries, health care costs, funding from the local tax base, the state and the Fed
The state and district would love to have as many kids in class as they could get away with
Teachers and parents fight to get number lower
A school/ISD will NEVER split an age group/class into smaller sizes because of kids who act out
They will try as much as they can to keep classes at maximum if there are reduced numbers by moving a teacher into another grade level (thus raising numbers for the grade the teacher left( vs hiring another teacher for the necessary grade and letting the grade with reduced numbers stay reduced
Say you have 48 third graders in an elementary school and MAX class size is 24–
If there were 3 classes the year before with 68 that required 3 teachers—the school will move one teacher OUT of the 48 group and have two classes with 24 kids each vs three with 16…
Would teachers and parents love to have 16 per class—you bet—but the principal has to run a budget set by his district and his district would consider 16 kids per class wasting money…
If he didn’t need that teacher for another grade group the teacher would likely be transferred to another school vs hiring a replacement—that is usually done based on seniority—
So if all three teachers have same or high # of teaching years, then a teacher with less seniority in another grade might be moved so the more senior teacher can stay at the school—if s/he WANTED to—
Maybe they wanted to move to the other school—but it is one case where rank has privilege in teaching
Believe me—
Taught in public schools, had kids in public schools, have daughter teaching in public schools
Students are rarely moved from one class to another because of discipline issues
A teacher is supposed to deal with them as matter of course
Moving a student would only happen if a parent has clout or there has been some issue way more than normal
And even then there are cases where one student has physically assaulted another and they were kept in same classroom—
Because they do so many activities as a group just moving to another class doesn’t separate them all the time
It doesn’t require any sort of expertise to understand that only one person at a time can use a gas pump.
I don’t teach in either middle or high schools. But those are the students that I get in my university classes. And I see firsthand just how poorly educated those students are, coming out of high school.
Based on my own significant experience, seeing firsthand the end product of secondary school education in this country, it’s easy to conclude that few secondary education teachers have much to be proud of.
Wow, that’s a wild take. I’m glad you fix them all up when they leave your class though. Way to deflect the blame for your poor teaching to someone else. That’s also considering that you are teaching the top students coming out of high school. Imagine if you had to teach a regular freshman high school class.
This is not a jab at teachers. I mean more discipline instilled at home and carried over to school.
Disruptive students are a major factor requiring low student to teacher ratios. If there were more discipline in the classroom and fewer disruptions, class sizes could be larger (30+) without slowing the pace. This would reduce the cost of education.
I disagree they could be that large if you want the kids decently educated. Teachers with classes larger than 30 don't have enough time to answer all the questions students have or to take a few minutes here and there and help out a poorly performing student. If you survey a group of teachers the first thing they will generally request from school administration are smaller classes.
Discipline problems may figure into all of this, but are seldom mentioned by teachers as a reason they need smaller class sizes.
Last edited by markg91359; 10-13-2023 at 08:27 AM..
I disagree they could that large if you want the kids decently educated. Teachers with classes larger than 30 don't have enough time to answer all the questions students have or to take a few minutes here and there and help out a poorly performing student. If you survey a group of teachers the first thing they will generally request from school administration are smaller classes.
Discipline problems may figure into all of this, but are seldom mentioned by teachers as a reason they need smaller class sizes.
It doesn't matter how large or small a class is, one or two kids you have to stand beside the entire class to curtail behavior will crash the class.
I taught a kid, regular ed, who had to have a teacher sit beside him at graduation so he wouldn't get stupid. At graduation. He was also indirectly a reason I retired when I did due to a fight he was involved in that spiraled out of control where he injured another teacher while we were breaking it up.
Having said that, what you said about larger class sizes and kids getting lost in the mix is accurate.
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Countries that produce demonstrated educational excellence try to limit class size to 24-30. But.... Each teacher may have a 4 hour morning group to of 30 students, then another 30 for afternoon session.
Requires 1/2 the schools, teachers, administrators, and buses
And no lunch / food service
few countries even have school buses
Unneeded expense. And huge liability.
I disagree they could be that large if you want the kids decently educated. Teachers with classes larger than 30 don't have enough time to answer all the questions students have or to take a few minutes here and there and help out a poorly performing student. If you survey a group of teachers the first thing they will generally request from school administration are smaller classes.
Discipline problems may figure into all of this, but are seldom mentioned by teachers as a reason they need smaller class sizes.
It's also paperwork.
I was an earth science teacher, and tried to do about two lab activities a week. For most of my thirteen years in the classroom I had 5 classes, about 25 kids per class, total around 125 or so. That was about 250 labs to evaluate per week. The last year I taught in Prince Georges County, Maryland the idiotic voters passed a tax initiative that resulted in me then having 6 classes a day, 40 kids per class. Does anyone really think that a teacher can (or even should have to) grade 480 labs a week?
Countries that produce demonstrated educational excellence try to limit class size to 24-30. But.... Each teacher may have a 4 hour morning group to of 30 students, then another 30 for afternoon session.
Requires 1/2 the schools, teachers, administrators, and buses
And no lunch / food service
few countries even have school buses
Unneeded expense. And huge liability.
Gee, I had 120 kids every other day, 240 total on a block schedule.
What's your point, if you have one? Or is this just more of your babbling with no point? Yes, I know your kids were international business magnates when they were eight and you went to dairy farm boarding school (and as I said, some of us milked cows without having to go to school for it).
Gee, I had 120 kids every other day, 240 total on a block schedule.
What's your point, if you have one? Or is this just more of your babbling with no point? Yes, I know your kids were international business magnates when they were eight and you went to dairy farm boarding school (and as I said, some of us milked cows without having to go to school for it).
Well, no one disputes that class sizes can be large if there's good discipline. Freshman physics chemistry and calculus had 80 or 100 students in a section where I went to school and that was a small school - I'm sure the class sizes are even bigger in the big state schools. But there was no disruption.
Moving it down to elementary middle and high schools, though, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how you're going to magically obtain classroom discipline when corporal punishment is outlawed, teachers aren't allowed to send kids to the office (and they'll just send them right back anyway, and it'll be a black mark on the teacher), and a class can have kids ranging from retarded through emotionally disturbed, just plain behind, on to kids at or above grade level, and the teachers aren't allowed to separate them out; and a substantial fraction have no reliable parents.
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