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Why in the kittens would I want to walk in the rain, sleet, snow, the heat and humidity of summer, be forced into inefficient linear navigation, only to be panhandled by every low life loser in existence every 15 feet? Because that is what pedestrian malls amount to.
Give me a nice heated and air conditioned enclosed mall that limits my exposure to the dregs of society, allows me to navigate efficiently in 3 dimensions, and has a nice current directory of shops and stores that allows me to effectively plan my shopping excursion. If I want I can enjoy a soda without some annoying pigeon bothering me or some alleged homeless person asking me for change.
Pedestrian malls are for bunch of bicycling woke losers who can't tell if somebody is attracted to them and develop a series of unfulfilled crushes because they are too afraid to interact with people through some other than an app on their smart phone or some elderly hippies trying to relive the 60s and 70s. So yeah, in Ashville NC.
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Originally Posted by rabbit33
Yeah, well, let's compare, say, London vs. Boston or Phoenix.
Winter: London is oh so cold at 40F with fog. Meantime, in Boston they've just finished clearing 2 feet of snow from the latest noreaster and the high for today will be 7F. But that's OK, tomorrow they're forecasting another foot. And winds from 20-40 mph.
Summer: London's having an 'orrible heat wave at 80F. Meantime, in Phoenix, temps at ground level are rapidly approaching the temp of the sun's surface, and there's no shade.
Where would you like to walk around outdoors, and where would you really really prefer to be inside a big building with HVAC?
Very few Western Europeans have even the faintest CLUE about what weather extremes in the US consist of.
Some places in the US also have excellent street musicians, but not always in pedestrian only zones (New Orleans French Quarter for example).
New Orleans has both.
For example, St Peter, St Ann and Chartres Streets around Jackson Square are permanently Pedestrian Malls with live music, street performers, artists, vendors, preachers, protestors...
Bourbon and Royal Streets turn into Pedestrian only streets on certain days at certain times. I think they are opposite. Bourbon being a pedestrian mall at night and Royal during the day. Bourbon features street performances even when open to vehicular traffic.
There was also a proposal to close Orleans Street and Frenchmen St and French Market Pl off from vehicular traffic, but that was met with fierce opposition.
Then COVID hit and they planned to shut down the entire downtown area to cars so that restaurants and stores could expand outdoors to reduce the risk of transmitting the virus.
Every Mayor comes up with a plan to reduce vehicular traffic in the Quarter, but the opposition is always fierce. The thing is, these pedestrian malls are great for tourists and the tourists bring in the dollars so that is great for the city. But pedestrian malls are not so great for residents of the quarter and surrounding neighborhoods.
I don't think many of us would appreciate not being able to drive to our homes. Having to walk outside the neighborhood to call a Lyft. Not being able to have your groceries delivered. Imagine buying a fridge or other large appliances. How would they get it to you? Businesses themselves already have issues getting their deliveries. Sure restaurant workers could take public transit home after work, but would you want to walk through new Orleans at night with a pocket full of tips? Adjacent Neighborhoods would be inundated with vehicles.
On City Data we always look at things from a visitors point of view, but rarely from the view of residents. The Pedestrian Mall is nice for YOU as a visitor but it's a pain in the but for nearby residents.
Like with most things, too much of something become a bad thing.
My impression of the pedestrian mall is that it was a fad in the 70s, a last ditch effort to save what was left of the traditional downtown shopping district, by restricting access by cars, and making them more like the newly popular indoor malls, at the time. People obviously weren't ready for that, and they generally didn't work.
It seems like a slightly altered concept is becoming popular again, but geared more toward outdoor dining and entertainment, and not blocking automobile access to major thoroughfares. Cleveland's popular E. 4th Street comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_4...eet_(Cleveland)
Because calling it a "pedestrian mall" didn't change the fact it was the same crappy stores in the same rundown buildings with the same mediocre selection of merchandise. Or you could go to the nice, air-conditioned mall out of the weather, shop at Sears (who had a very wide selection back then), Penny's, a selection of current fashions stores, a couple of pretty good bookstores, get lunch in the food court (which at one time was pretty decent) or dinner for the whole family in Morrisons (I miss those), then catch a movie (or put the kids in the matinee with a giant bag of popcorn while mom and dad do their thing). That's a no brainer to pick between the two.
Because calling it a "pedestrian mall" didn't change the fact it was the same crappy stores in the same rundown buildings with the same mediocre selection of merchandise. Or you could go to the nice, air-conditioned mall out of the weather, shop at Sears (who had a very wide selection back then), Penny's, a selection of current fashions stores, a couple of pretty good bookstores, get lunch in the food court (which at one time was pretty decent) or dinner for the whole family in Morrisons (I miss those), then catch a movie (or put the kids in the matinee with a giant bag of popcorn while mom and dad do their thing). That's a no brainer to pick between the two.
I guess that varied from town to town. From what I've read, downtown Youngstown still had at least one major department store (with it's own restaurant, people still reminisce about their milkshakes) into the 1990s, and movie theaters (antique single screen kind) into the 80s. Although this was before my time here, it seems like it was the lack of easy automobile access that killed off this stuff.
Somewhat off-topic, but I'm a little amused by the double standard that in place regarding available parking. When downtown, people complain that there's no parking, if they don't find a space immediately in front of the entrance to where they're going. But these same people don't have a problem with parking as much as a quarter mile away from the entrance of the suburban shopping center.
I guess that varied from town to town. From what I've read, downtown Youngstown still had at least one major department store (with it's own restaurant, people still reminisce about their milkshakes) into the 1990s, and movie theaters (antique single screen kind) into the 80s. Although this was before my time here, it seems like it was the lack of easy automobile access that killed off this stuff.
Somewhat off-topic, but I'm a little amused by the double standard that in place regarding available parking. When downtown, people complain that there's no parking, if they don't find a space immediately in front of the entrance to where they're going. But these same people don't have a problem with parking as much as a quarter mile away from the entrance of the suburban shopping center.
I saw, and still see in some smaller areas, the downtown merchants association (or whatever name they go by) fighting against the malls going up or any other shopping other than downtown. And now days are pushing for government money to rebuild their stores. Our local city just did a major refurb of down town, put in pretty street lights, etc. Right afterward they had a consultant come in to "help" plan the future. Yep the consultant's recommendation was refurb downtown at taxpayer expense, yet still no parking.
Car access was an issue, but it wasn't just about not having parking place right outside the store. There simply were fewer parking places than people looking to shop. If downtown had a hundred parking places and 200 cars trying to park, the mall had a thousand parking places and 200 cars trying to park. There were many times when either dad or I would drop mom off in front of the store and spend the next half hour up and down main street looking for a place to park while she shopped. Then when we found a place pick out a strategic corner to observe the sidewalk looking for her to come out of a store so we could find her. We were very happy to go to the mall and just park.
We visited Seattle a few years ago and went out to dinner in some nearby town. They were just finishing up revamping the downtown area, and had deliberately blocked about a third of the parking places with concrete islands. There weren't a lots of places open in the area, but signs indicated more were coming. We still had to park a couple of blocks from the restaurant. It was good food, but I wouldn't plan on going back.
I guess that varied from town to town. From what I've read, downtown Youngstown still had at least one major department store (with it's own restaurant, people still reminisce about their milkshakes) into the 1990s, and movie theaters (antique single screen kind) into the 80s. Although this was before my time here, it seems like it was the lack of easy automobile access that killed off this stuff.
I wouldn't say that about the theater. The car likely had little direct effect on most. Post 1950ies movie theaters were suffering from a lot of problems. Before television people went out to them more often and stayed in them longer. After television there was a big drop in attendance. The advent of home air-conditioning(i.e. the window unit kind) also made them less popular as people used to go to them to escape the heat.
Some movie theaters survived as 2nd run theater's until the 80ies but the VCR(blockbuster) and Cable TV killed them(or they converted to something else...There is one that went back to being a first run theater!). In a few cities until the late 90ies cult favorites like The Rocky Horror Picture show ran in a one(there used to be a sort of ritual that fans who watched it did). In the 70ies a few turned into porn theaters in more seedy areas(also hit hard or killed by the VCR or Cable). Many died as there was less population nearby to support them(effect of suburbanization) and they couldn't compete with newer theaters in the burbs or else where in town.
An old single screen movie theater would have trouble competing with newer theaters with bigger screens or better sound systems. Even worse, having one screen means fewer selection of movies or less time slots where it could run popular movies. Also in the 90ies movie seats got a bit more larger and more comfortable.
Pedestrian malls just didn't work in a lot of places. Chicago's State street lost customers when it was turned into one in the 70ies and gained them when it was removed in the 1990ies. It's problem was more not the right scale; the CTA ran tons of busses down the street making it impossible to cross; and getting rid of cars made it less popular for tourist and other people driving into the city who didn't want or didn't feel safe using public transit(i.e. People who drove in from the nearby midwestern regions or say the suburban house wife who drove in to shop and make an evening of it with her husband who worked downtown and rode Metra to work.) Worse still the vast majority of the malls in the burbs had free parking.
They can work in places that already have a lot of foot traffic(say tourist or students) are small, the right scale and walkable.
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Somewhat off-topic, but I'm a little amused by the double standard that in place regarding available parking. When downtown, people complain that there's no parking, if they don't find a space immediately in front of the entrance to where they're going. But these same people don't have a problem with parking as much as a quarter mile away from the entrance of the suburban shopping center.
Parking that far away rarely happened outside of the Christmas Rush. The moat of parking around a mall served two purposes:
1. It allowed the stores to maximize foot traffic during the Christmas rush. When I was a kid\young adult during at that time of year, it could take 15-20 mins to find parking in the lot at North Riverside Mall due to the number of cars there. Otherwise not. The internet really changed this. But for about 3-4 days before Christmas Eve, the lot parking was packed and for about two to three weeks before then, it was at about 2/3 to 3/4 capacity. There was another suburban Chicago mall that rented lot space from local office buildings and ran a bus to take people to and from the mall at Christmas time.
2. Outside of the Christmas rush having parking spread around the mall meant that you could park closest to the area of the mall you wanted to go to much easier than in the city.
Anyway, enclosed malls overall had a better shopping experience at the time. They had security to keep out beggars and homeless people. Due to homeless people sleeping and camping on benches, cities often removed them from shopping areas to discourage homeless people from congregating there, but this made the area worse for shoppers. Nowhere to rest your weary feet for a few minutes. Indoor malls had plenty of benches.
The climate control meant that you didn’t get roasted in the sun, rained on, snowed on, hit with gust of freezing wind when traveling between stores and the short walk back to the car minimized the amount of time you were in the elements. In addition having your car nearby meant that you could carry or put things you did not want to carry around the mall in your trunk if you need to(i.e. something big, bulky, or valuable). In cities if there was not a parking lot at the store the parking could be far from the store.
In the 1980ies food courts became common in malls(before then restaurants were located all over the mall like downtown). This made getting a lot of different options in very short walking distance possible. Movie theaters in malls were kind of hit or miss because they were as compatible as use of mall space as other things (Malls tend to close around 6 but movie theaters tend to stay open latter. ).
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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This was tried in Redmond, WA, called Redmond Town Center. With our 8-9 months of rain, it makes no sense to have to walk between shops and restaurants, and sure enough, the has been a lot of businesses come and go over the years since built in 1997. The whole thing has been sold in 2013 and again in 2019. We used to go there sometimes for 2 different favorite restaurants, long since closed, a pet store, now gone, and a kitchen/home store, now gone. In the last few years we only went there once, last month, to see a new H-Mart Asian food store, but found it disappointing and won't be back.
Denver has a pedestrian mall call the "16th Street Mall". I was pretty enamored by it when I moved there in 2008. We didn't have anything like it where I came from. It was mostly thriving, with a broad selection of retail, bars, and restaurants. Lots of pedestrian activity on the mall, too, accompanied by some regular street performers.
Around 2016, I started noticing a slight decline in foot traffic. Lots of long established places started boarding up. After the work day, the place seemed to mostly clear out. Weekends had modest foot traffic, but not what it had been eight years earlier. I also started seeing an increase in the homeless population, as well as garbage and used needles on the sidewalks. COVID pretty much wiped out any of those businesses hanging on by a thread. Near light rail stops, there are still some retail and restaurants. However, there are also long stretches of nothingness. A year or so ago, they started on a large scale sewer line project that nearly closed down 60% of the mall. When I was there a couple months back, it was a complete ghost town.
I don't know if it'll ever recover to its optimal state, but I'll certainly miss the days when I could go down on a Friday evening and walk down the mall and back, casually walking the people and performers as I strolled by.
Sparks Street Mall in Ottawa is quite nice and relatively busy during the say with all the civil servants but the best in the country, by far, is Calgary's Stephen Ave Mall.
It is a full 5 blocks long and seems to have done everything right. It's busy both night and day and has some of Calgary's finest examples of sand stone buildings. Tons of good restaurants, cafes, bars, shopping, patios, and public art. Obviously busier in the warmer months but still a great place year round with activities, entertainment, and festivals.
What has helped make it so successful is that it's not just a ding/shopping corridor but also is banked by the Calgary Convention Centre, City Hall, Olympic Plaza, and nearly all the main hotels downtown. All this while being just a single block from the very busy LRT CTrain, and flanked by Calgary's huge number of office towers and workers, all combining to make it the place to go regardless of why you are downtown in the first place.
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